Interview with Robert Matz

Interview by Ashli Arbo Sutton

(Editor's Note: This is an interview that Ashli did with Robert a few weeks ago. We had not posted this on the Support TRBC blog since all of the drama had died down. With the recent news of Dr. Sutton leaving, we felt that now was an appropriate time to release this interview. I hope it blesses you).

1. Please introduce yourself:

Hello, my name is Robert Matz. I attended Vanderbilt University where I met my wife, Jessica. For the past two years we have lived in Fort Worth Texas where we are both students at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Jessica is working on a Masters of Arts in Marriage and Family Therapy, and I am completing a Masters of Divinity.
During our years in Nashville, we attended Two Rivers, and I had the opportunity to work closely with Dr. Sutton as his intern and research assistant.

2. How did you meet Bro. Jerry and come to Two Rivers?

I came to Two Rivers for the first time the Sunday after September 11. I was a freshman at Vanderbilt and earlier that week prior to the terrorist attacks an upperclassman had invited me to come visit his church—the best church in Nashville he boasted. I can still remember Dr. Sutton’s strong exposition of God’s word during that turbulent time. The upperclassman was right – Two Rivers was the best church in town.

I first met Brother Jerry in late 2001. I had recently decided that Two Rivers would be my church home while I was at school. One Sunday, Dr. Sutton offered to take all of the Vanderbilt students in the college class out to lunch at a Chinese restaurant after church. I was encouraged by not only the time of fellowship, but also by the knowledge that Two Rivers and its pastor cared about us.

3. Tell us about your experience as Brother Jerry's research assistant:

As Bro. Jerry’s research assistant I assisted in sermon preparation (normally by finding illustrations for his sermons), research projects (such as his recent book), and occasionally traveled with Bro. Jerry to pastor’s conferences or conventions. I was able to shadow Dr. Sutton both during the week and on Sundays. Bro. Jerry also occasionally allowed me to preach evening sermons with the goal of giving me hands-on-experience at preaching.

4. Do you have any fond memories or experiences working with Dr. Sutton at Two Rivers?

I have had so many wonderful memories and experiences with Dr. Sutton. I could probably type about them for hours. I will try to briefly talk about a few here.

Perhaps my fondest memory of Dr. Sutton revolves around my wedding. Dr. Sutton married my wife and me. I don’t think I will ever forget him praying with my groomsmen and I just before we walked out to watch my bride come down the aisle.

A little over a year ago I was able to attend the Southern Baptist Convention in San Antonio as a messenger of my church in Fort Worth. During the week I was able to shadow Dr. Sutton, and it was exciting to watch Bro. Jerry prepare for his talk at pastor’s conference. It was inspiring to meet other great pastor from around the convention who looked up20to Dr. Sutton as “the last great pastor-theologian” in the convention. Throughout the experience, I was humbled by Dr. Sutton’s godly reaction to both praise and disagreement. I was floored by his desire for reconciliation with some of the conventions harshest antagonists. In all, Dr. Sutton modeled the character of Jesus Christ.


5. Did you learn anything special as a research assistant?

Dr. Sutton taught me a much about preaching and the pastorate as his research assistant. As a pastor Dr. Sutton taught me to love every person from the waiter at a restaurant to elderly shut-in to the wealthy businessman to the powerful convention executive. As a preacher he modeled to me relevant sermons that faithful exegeted (explained) Biblical passages.

6. What are your future ministry plans?

Through Two Rivers and Dr. Sutton, God showed me that His call for my life was to the pastorate. I know that God will use the experiences and lessons I have learned at Two Rivers and from Dr. Sutton throughout the ministry He has called me to.

7. Any words of encouragement?

Dr. Sutton, you are in our prayers. Jessica and I love you and thank God for the role you played in our lives. You have acted as a second father to me, and I thank you for your hard work, your ministry, and your zeal for God. Stay strong and know that no matter what God is using you and blessing your ministry in ways you may never see this side of heaven.

8. Anything else you want to share?

One other thing, I know that many of the current accusations at Two Rivers against Dr. Sutton revolve around expenditures. For two years I was able to watch how Dr. Sutton accounted for expenditures. I have never seen him be wasteful or flippant with church funds. Rather I have seen him act with integrity.

Some might remember that I have preached at Two Rivers a few times. I was not financially compensated for preaching; rather Dr. Sutton took me out to dinner after church. After dinner, I watched as Dr. Sutton noted on the receipt the participants and the circumstances. Dr. Sutton then provided these recipients to the church finance committee which reviewed the expenses. Every time I ever saw Dr. Sutton use the church credit card he did this. I have never seen him try to hide expenses or the use of the church card, and I have only seen him use it for ministry purposes.

Our Finest Hour

by Sean T. Hughes



I know that a lot of you are asking, what is the movie clip for. Hang with me for a little bit. I’m going to tie it all together.

I was saddened earlier this week by the news that someone who my wife dearly loves is leaving Two Rivers. This friend felt that it was time to leave for two reasons. First, she wanted to go to a church closer to her house. Second, this friend of my wife couldn’t bring her parents to church because she was scared that another conflict would break out. Her parents aren’t saved. So it doesn’t help my wife’s friend to bring her parents to a church where people aren’t acting like Christ.

This isn’t new. We’ve lost some people due to the conflict in our church. Some people have left because they don’t want to expose their children to what’s going on (that’s totally understandable). Some people have left because they didn’t like the tense air that surrounded Two Rivers and couldn’t worship Jesus in that setting. Some people have left because they didn’t agree with the vote that took place on Mother’s Day (agree or disagree with what went on, it’s a fact).

I think that the plaintiff group believes that they’re acting in the best interest of our church. However, I think they’re disillusioned in that they think they’re saving Two Rivers. On the contrary, when people are leaving a church and others aren’t coming to church because of conflict that you’ve caused, that’s not saving a church. [Of course the plaintiffs don’t believe they caused the conflict, but that’s a whole other topic!]

In some aspects, things look grim for our church. I’m not here to discourage you. I’m just stating the facts. Keep on reading, though. Things get better :o)

Yesterday morning, I was reading a book about children’s ministry, and it mentioned the Apollo 13 movie (I think I’m going to have to go out and buy a copy of that movie. I forgot how great it was). The book described two scenes in the movie.

The first one was the redefining of the mission. When Mission Control realized all that went wrong with the Apollo 13 rocket, Ed Harris’ character gathers all of the staff around and says they have a new mission: to bring those astronauts home.

The Bible clearly states our mission as Christians. It can be found in the Great Commission:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age”. (Matthew 28:20)

Our mission is two fold; tell unbelievers about Jesus and disciple those who believe. I don’t think that the plaintiff group or the Support Two Rivers group has done a good job of either lately. I can’t speak for the plaintiff group, but I can say that the Support Two Rivers group has been so focused on the battle with the plaintiffs; we have had to take our mind off our actual mission.

I’m trying to be the Ed Harris character of Mission Control here. WE’VE GOT TO KEEP OUR EYES ON THE MISSION. Two Rivers will make it. We may have a few scars along the way, but we will make it as long as we keep focused on the mission.

My question now is, what can you do to help with the mission? (Now is the time to pray HARD about that).

Some of you may not be Billy Graham when it comes to evangelism. Can you invite a friend to church on Sunday? Can you invite someone to a church event that they may feel comfortable with? Can you give someone a tract that tells them about Jesus? Can you just listen to someone, and then tell them “I’m going to pray for you”?

Some of you may not think you can disciple anyone. Let me ask you, can you help out with Children (the lessons material that are provided. You don’t have to be a Bible scholar). Can you serve in some area instead of being served? Can you step out in faith where God is leading you, knowing that He’ll help you with what you need?

My final point has to do with the movie clip at the top of this page. At one point in Apollo 13, a couple of the Mission Control people are talking and saying “This is going to be the worst disaster NASA has ever experienced”. At that point, Ed Harris’ character turns to them and says “With all due respect, sir, I believe this is going to be our finest hour”.

What is your perspective? Do you think that Two Rivers has suffered the worst disaster in Southern Baptist history, or is this our finest hour? Will you be one of those people that others will talk about for years to come, like those in Nehemiah who decided to rise up and rebuild the wall? Will you be discouraged because some have left, or be like those who followed Gideon into battle?

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. And the Lord has called my wife and me to serve at Two Rivers. I invite you to stand, serve, and disciple others with me. THIS WILL BE OUR FINEST HOUR!

My response to Lonnie Wilkey's article

by Tina Hickman

(Editor's Note: This is a letter that Tina wrote to the Baptist & Reflector newspaper. That newspaper is published by the Tennessee Baptist Convention. Last month, they ran an article called "Good Neighbors", where the writer sites he is a neighbor of one of the plaintiff and tells their side of the story. Unfortunately, the writer of the article didn't bother to check the other side of the story. Therefore, Tina wrote this letter and has asked me to publish it on the blog).

Mr. Wilkey,

This is my comment regarding your article in the Baptist Reflector entitled “Good Neighbors”.

My name is Tina Hickman and I am a member of Two Rivers Baptist Church. I am glad you have found good neighbors in the Dotsons. I personally do not know them even though they were once members of our church. This comment does not reflect against them personally.

You quoted in your article that members of the plaintiff group just wanted to see financial records and in turn were labeled troublemakers. They didn’t just ask for financial records like they tell the media. Truth be told that many of those who are in a leadership role of the plaintiff group have as a main goal to get Jerry Sutton and the staff to leave the church (and yes, a few of them have told me this personally). The original demand letter requested all financial documents including salaries, benefits, tithe records of all members, all personnel files including background checks, bankruptcies, divorce proceedings and child custody issues of all the staff (not just pastors). The lawsuit asked the judge to remove the pastor and the staff from the church and the plaintiffs requested damages in the form of money. They have accused our pastor and staff of bogus wrong-doing that has been proven false time and again. They have taken this to the local media and have tainted the witness of TRBC in the community. I am not sure if you have read the court documents such as the demand letter, the lawsuit, the motion to dismiss, the appeal, etc but I highly suggest that you do.

I have a question for you – have you been in our church in the last year as all of this has been going on? The reason this group of individuals has been grouped together is because each one of them signed their name to the lawsuit as a collective group representing TRBC (they do not represent me at all nor the majority of the members of TRBC). Does that make them troublemakers? Not necessarily. However, there are individuals in the plaintiff group who have disrupted the services with outbursts, spread lies and gossip in the church in the lobby in between services or in the Sunday school classes, have cornered our staff in between services to begin verbally attacking them. Is this the majority of the plaintiff group? Absolutely not. However, as a part of that group they have not stopped it either. There are still plaintiffs that attend our church and group together within the lobby as the next service is about to begin gossiping about our staff and our pastor loud enough to be heard by those coming to the upcoming service.

You made the comment that “if everyone involved would be completely honest, hopefully all would agree that both sides have made mistakes. People, especially Christians, need to learn the art of disagreeing ‘agreeably.’” I think our staff and especially our pastor have been very reasonable during this entire process. They have not commented about the things they have endured during this time to the media outlets mainly to protect our church body. They have kept quiet and I cannot even begin to imagine the grief this entire ordeal has caused them. I am sure they would have a great deal to tell the media if their goal was to smear the reputation of those who have caused great problems within our church walls but they have taken the example of Christ and not done that. You talk about being honest. If some of the plaintiffs were truly honest to the media about their motives behind the lawsuit and the smear campaign against our pastor, staff, and our church then they would openly tell the media that their main goal is Jerry Sutton’s departure from the church. It is easier to hide behind the façade of wanting financial records.

Each plaintiff had ample opportunity to remove their names from the lawsuit and repent to the church for going against God’s Word by bringing a lawsuit that would stain the reputation of our church in the community and that of our pastors and even the members. Each of the 71 chose not to remove their name. We could not pick and choose who we would allow to stay or to vote out. Each one signed onto the lawsuit and each one chose to stay a part of that so each one became a group at the time of the vote to be removed. I am sorry the Dotsons are “churchless” as you claim. They didn’t have to be and still don’t have to be. They can make the decision today to keep coming to TRBC as a non-member or they can ask forgiveness from the church as a whole and be welcomed back. In reality, it is up to them.

One last comment – I do find it interesting that you say “this is not an indictment against Two Rivers Baptist Church” but the tone and the message of your article begs to differ. You do not have all the facts listed regarding the lawsuit let alone the vote to oust the plaintiffs from membership. I find it totally inappropriate that you have decided to participate in the smear campaign against our church. Yes, there are two sides to every story and you have neglected to consider the side of TRBC in this article. We didn’t label them “troublemakers” - the media did.

Where do we go from here!?!

by Sean T. Hughes

(Editor's Note: I've never claimed to be a writer. I'm just a guy with a computer and a love for Jesus and HIS church. That's why I want to give a special thanks to Dave Fry for his editorial help on this piece. I couldn't have done it without him. I'd also like to take this opportunity to those who serve as my "unofficial board" of this website. Your help is more valuable than you know).

The battle isn’t over yet. The dust has settled from the recent conflicts that we’ve had at Two Rivers, but the battle isn’t over. I say this because the plaintiff group is continually bringing up information and claiming they have a “smoking gun” that proves that Jerry Sutton is involved in some type of shenanigans.

The plaintiff group may think they have a smoking gun, but they don’t. It’s more like that gun that you see in Bugs Bunny cartoons. You know the one. A character will aim a pistol and fire it, only to have a little flag that pops out and says “Bang!” That’s the type of smoking gun that they have.

Now that this chapter in Two Rivers history has passed, we need to answer a question that has been asked time and time again. It’s the elephant under the rug that no one wants to talk about: “Where do we go from here!?!” I’m not a church leadership figure, but I hope to answer this question right now.

Our church has been pretty beat up over the past few months. I know some of you feel beat up as well. The attacks that we’ve endured have had an emotional impact on us. From the vote on May 4^th to disqualifying the plaintiff’s votes on May 11^th. This time has been hard on all of us.

I have to continually remind myself of Romans 8:28; “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose”. It was a rocky road to the vote. Still, I believe that God’s will was done when seventy-one members were removed from membership for their unbiblical activity. The Bible doesn’t condone the plaintiff’s behavior, it condemns it. That’s why I truly believe that God’s will was done on May 11^th.

So again we ask, “Where do we go from here?” That answer is quite simple. We go where God leads us. I’m going to suggest a couple of things that we need to do as a church to move on from this situation.

1. Be vigilant. Like I said in the beginning of this blog post, the conflict isn’t over. More than likely, the plaintiff group will not go quietly into the night. 1 Peter 5:8 tells us that we should “Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (We don't believe that the plaintiff group is Satan. However we believe their actions are ungodly). We should be aware of this, but we shouldn’t let them occupy our every thought and every minute of the day. Which leads me to my next point …

2. Be focused on ministry. The conflict has taken our eyes off the goal. The purpose of the church is to tell the good news and minister to the needs of the lost and the body. We’ve got to focus on what God’s church is supposed to be about.

A church is not a country club where we sit around, hear God’s word, and feel good about ourselves. (I find it quite ironic that when the plaintiff group meets as a church, they do so at a country club). We’ve got to focus on others more than we do ourselves. There’s a hurting and dying world out there. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

Some of you will ask, “What can I do?” Plenty!

Pray about how you can serve around the church. Life goes on at Two Rivers. There are many ministries that need your help. If you’re a committed member or attendee of Two Rivers Baptist Church, and you’re not serving somewhere, WHY NOT?

If you want to grow in Christ, you have to serve. There’s no ifs ands, or buts about it. Jesus constantly served people to show us how life should be lived. And if we’re supposed to be like Jesus, shouldn’t we be serving as well?

First, pray about where God would want you to serve.

Truth is, there are ministries that really could use some help. I know that Children’s Ministry needs pre-school teachers on Sunday morning (Any idiot can do it. I’m living proof). This is just one example of many needs at Two Rivers.

Ask yourself, what type of activities do you like to do, and then find the ministry that fits that passion in your life. If you don’t connect well with teenagers, Maclane probably doesn’t need you to help out at the Brick House on Wednesday night. However, if you love video and all things technical, Jeff can use you on a video camera or Wayne can use you to help set up sound. Like to talk on the phone? Dr. Highfill could use some help following up with visitors to our church on Tuesday nights with the GROW ministry.

If you don’t know what you like to do, then try something out for a couple of weeks and see if you like it. If you like it, continue to serve. If you don’t like it, then you know that ministry probably isn’t for you. Then move on to another ministry.

Above all, pray about how God would have you serve. Then do so with joy. God speaks how he loves a cheerful giver. This isn’t just about our money, but our time and service as well

3. Encourage Each Other. First of all, I would suggest that you encourage the Pastors and staff. This group has been beaten black and blue (figuratively speaking) from the recent conflict. They’ve endured this because they love God’s church and its people.

If you don’t personally know any of the Pastors or Staff, get involved in their ministries. I assure you, the more you help out, the more connected you’ll be with them and other people in the church.

Second, we need to encourage each other. Give that word of encouragement that a brother or sister needs. Show people that you love them by your concern for them. Smile at people as you pass them in the halls! As the old hymn goes, “They will know they are Christians by our love.”

If you’re not involved in a Sunday School class, get in one. If that class doesn’t suit you, try another one. There is a place for you to connect and be ministered to, you just need to find it. Our Sunday School classes (or Bible Study Fellowships, if you prefer that title!) are where one on one ministry takes place in our church.

When people come to me and say that they’re really not connecting with anyone in the church, I’ll ask them what ministry they’re involved with and are they in a Sunday School class. Ninety-eight percent of the time, they won’t be involved with either.

If you want to swim in the pool, you’ve got to jump in and get wet. If you want to be connected at Two Rivers, you’ve got to jump into ministry and Sunday School.

4. Reach out to others. When someone visits a church and doesn’t come back, one of the main reasons is that no one talks to them. Before you found yourself at Two Rivers, how many churches did you attend where no one said “Hi” or “Glad you’re here”?

I’ve heard it said that a Southern Baptist will crawl over three visitors to get to the one person that they know. We can’t be like that if we expect to thrive as a church. When Pastor tells you in service to greet those around you, don’t seek out the people you know. Seek out those you don’t know who may be visiting. Some of them are just dying to have someone be friendly to them.

Invite others to Church. I can’t tell you the number of people that I’ve meet who attend Two Rivers who are there because someone invited them to church. If you invite someone to church, the worst thing that they can say is “no”. Invite people to church events where they can meet people (like if your Sunday School class is having some type of event).

Last, but not least, we have to tell people the good news of Jesus Christ. If you don’t know how, hook up with Jerry Highfill. On Tuesday nights he works with our FAITH outreach program. Or go to our library and get a book about sharing your faith. Or better yet, find someone and ask them how (like your Sunday School class director or teacher).

At Two Rivers, we need people who will stand up and be counted. When need servant leaders who are willing to do the work no one else will do. We need people who will reach out to other people. We need people who will share the good news of Jesus Christ.

The past year has been rough for us as a church. If we rise together and stand for Jesus, we will not only survive, but we’ll thrive.

To paraphrase a quote from JFK; ask not what your church and Jesus can do for you, but what you can do for your church and the name of Jesus.

My Vote. My Decision.

by Kelly Swindell

(Editor's Note: This was originally a post that Kelly made on the Tennessean blog. I've avoided the Tennessean blogs due to its negative nature, so I never had the opportunity to read Kelly's post until she emailed it to me. After passing this along to a few church members for consultation, we decided that this would be a good post to put on the blog. This is posted with Kelly's permission.).

“SEE HERE HOW THE "VOTE" ON SUNDAY WAS ILLEGAL AND IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF TRBC BYLAWS.”

This is what you see when you first log onto the plaintiff’s website. Then, when you click on the link, you read repetitively how the church Bylaws state that “Every member of the church is entitled to vote at all elections and on all questions submitted to the church…”

I find it ironic, however, how the plaintiffs, yet again, have only chosen to use the bits and pieces of the bylaws and Robert’s Rules of Order that make it sound in their favor.

They say they know RRO, but I suppose they have forgotten the statute that states, “After charges are preferred against a member, and the assembly has ordered that he be cited to appear for trial, he is theoretically under arrest, and is DEPRIVED OF ALL THE RIGHTS OF MEMBERSHIP until his case is disposed of.”

Voting is one of the rights of membership! Now, I don’t claim to “know” Robert’s OR the Bylaws, but rather that this has definitely been a very interesting (and heartbreaking) learning experience for me. I have learned more about church “government” in the past year than I even knew existed! So, Praise the Lord, one good has at least come of this, even if it is a small one.

I have had countless coworkers ask me, “How can you kick your church members out? That’s just wrong, no matter what they’ve done.” Well, if you read Tina’s previous blog, it just touches lightly on the surface of what has been going on for the past year.

Oh, and the plaintiffs blame all of this on Brother Jerry, saying that it was his fault and his decision to remove them from membership. (Saying, “Well, Brother Jerry finally got his way...”) I have been a long time member, and I am here at least twice a week, and I pass Jerry in the halls quite frequently. Not ONCE has he ever approached me, emailed me, called me, or contacted me in any way to try and influence my decision.

I made my decision based on the choices that you made…when you decided you address him as Hitler, I decided. When you called him a liar and a thief, I decided. When you made the outbursts and the hateful comments, I decided. Oh, and when I came into the gym on a Wednesday evening, got my dinner, and sat down to eat, a group of three people came and sat with me. When they sat and talked about sending hate mail to Brother Jerry’s home, I decided (and excused myself).

So no, Jerry didn’t “get his way.” 663 people decided that day that we are tired of walking into our church home where we don’t feel safe. More would have, but you blocked them in their seats and wouldn’t let them out to get ballots.

For a year, we have been passive. We have sat by and allowed this to go on while we just played the “wait and see” game. No more. I heard one of you say on the news, “This is our church, it’s not his.” You are exactly right. It isn’t his. But is it only yours? This church belongs to the body of Two Rivers as a whole, not just the 71 who signed the lawsuit. So where do you get the idea that the rest of the entire body wants you to have control? (Let’s not forget who TRULY owns this church, though! For nothing would be possible without Him!)

I could go into the details about the church records and the finances, but we have been through that, and that isn’t even the issue. You are no longer members here, I am sorry to say. It truly does pain me to say that, to a degree, because, although I am still angry, God has still instructed me to love and forgive. It will take a long time to forgive.

You have a choice to make. Each and every one of you does…not you as a group, but each individual. You can either come and quietly come and worship this amazing God that we know is going to heal this church (I say that without doubt because I never doubt my Lord, even though I get scared sometimes), or you can continue to fight until you are defeated. Not defeated by us, per say, but by the one and only Lord Almighty who has his gracious hand over our beloved church and pastor! The ball is in your court… I hope that you will find your conscience and make the right decision, and, if not, then I truly hope that you are able to find a church home where you can worship the Lord the way you see fit.

Blessings to all!

Who does the church belong to?

(Editor's Note: This was forwarded to me by a church member. It comes from a blog post on Jon Rushing's blog http://www.jon-thejoshuajournal.blogspot.com/. The post was entitled "Why". I think it's important for all of us to remember who the church belongs to).

In this letter, 1 Corinthians, Paul astonishes the pastor (at least, he did me). When he was facing the most normal of problems (division in the church, worldliness, selfishness, and others) he reached for deeply theological responses. Paul called the Corinthian congregation to be not divided but united, not worldly but holy, not selfish but loving. That's not the surprising part. The surprising part is how he argued this with them. He called them to forsake divisions, because God is one. He called them to forsake sin, because God is holy. He called them to forsake selfishness, because God is loving. In all of this, the governing presupposition is not that the church should operate by a rule book of spiritual manners and etiquette, but that the church is a living reflection of the living God. There is one God. He is holy and has given himself in love. His church, therefore, should reflect his own character; we should be united and holy and loving or else we lie about him! That is a powerful thought." --Twelve Challenges Churches Face, by Mark Dever, page 10

A Heavy Heart

by Susan Mayo

I have had a heavy heart the past few days with what has been going on at my home church, the church that I have attended for almost 10 years now. The Lord has led me to several scripture passages dealing with church conflict this week and I feel the need to share what He is teaching me through this and what is on my heart.

I don’t agree with everything that goes on at Two Rivers Baptist Church, in fact, I have heard from the Pastor himself that he does not want everyone agreeing with him. We can have a difference of opinion; we don’t have to agree on every issue. What kind of church would that be?

Well, I have an idea of what kind of church that would be because I truly grew up in an abusive, dictatorship type of a church. The pastor abused his power and was, at times, verbally and emotionally abusive to me, along with a whole lot of other people. Sometimes this abuse came from face to face interactions with the Pastor other times it was the pulpit.

It took me a long time to get over the things that went on in my church and the spiritual damage that man did. But I have forgiven him and I came to the place where I know he is going to be held accountable for his actions. Nothing may happen in this lifetime, but in eternity, all things will be made equal.

Two Rivers Baptist church is not run by a dictator pastor. Have the administration and staff done everything perfectly? No. Have errors in judgment been made? I am sure of it. You know why? Because we are human and we make mistakes. I don’t truly know the heart of my pastor, only God does. But I do see fruits of his labor which lead me to believe his heart is true. I also see this in the staff and deacon body.

During all of this mess at the church I have seen time and time again godly leadership, not only in the pastor but also in the staff and deacon body. I have seen true Christ like behaviors. The pastor is not a dictator. He does not have a group of “yes” men as my pastor growing up did. There are committees in place and people to answer to. Has everything done perfectly and without error? No, and I think the pastor would be the first to say that. Was anything done will ill harm or prideful selfishness for his own gain and power? I do not see that.

The biggest impact the pastor had on me all through this was when he apologized from the pulpit. I have to say that I was waiting for that to happen. I felt it needed to happen. Not for the reasons that you think. Because even though he has not done the things that the plaintiffs say he has, people have been hurt. And even when you hurt your brother and sisters in Christ, albeit unknowingly, the scripture teaches us to make sure things are right between a brother and a sister. We are to go the extra step in restoration. The pastor has done that. He attended the meetings and met with the plaintiffs. He said he was sorry and that must have been really hard to do knowing you have done nothing wrong. I know it would be for me.

I am not a blind follower of man. My experiences growing up taught me not to be a blind follower of man. Why? I am not a follower of man because man will let you down every time. I am a blind follower of Jesus! Amen! He is the one I trust and seek. I trust that He knows exactly what needs to happen at Two Rivers and when it needs to happen. Man cannot change God’s plans. That is futile.

I have always said to friends that have left Two Rivers in the past that when God is ready for Jerry Sutton to leave the church, he will leave the church. If Jerry Sutton should have left the church and has not and is disobeying God, guess what? He is the one who will be held accountable for that. Yep. It is not my call. The pastor will answer for every decision and choice he has made as a pastor. Again, correct me if I am wrong, but he has also said that from the pulpit. The bible talks about teachers being held to a higher place of expectation and calling. Don’t become a teacher lightly, the scripture says (my interpretation), because the cost is greater for you. Much will be expected.

I know my pastor. I know he knows the accountability he is held to. And it is a much higher accountability than members of a church because it is a position of leadership. There are certain standards for Pastors, bishops and deacons spelled out clearly in the word of God. I believe my pastor listens to his Lord. He does not take this position lightly and he knows how much it would cost him if it did. Again, I have heard this from his own mouth.

In 1 Corinthians 3, this chapter discusses divisions in the church. In verse10 it talks about Paul discussing how he has been an expert builder, laying a foundation. It is our responsibility as a church to also build along our pastor. And you know what? All of our actions are going to have to be answered for. We are either building up the church or we are destroying it. The scripture goes on to say that we may think what we are doing is building the church. But our work will one day be tested by fire. That is where the truth will be made clear because if what you have been doing is not truly building the kingdom, even if you think it is godly and done with His purpose in mind, your work will burn up as hay.

Verse 13 says, “his (that is each of us in the church) work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

That is enough for me to bow my head and get on my face before God asking Him if there is anything in me that is not building His church. I am sure, in my heart, the pastor, staff and deacon body have all done the same thing. I believe this because I have seen the fruit of prayer, fasting, and seeking God’s face in all of this. And I see it in the interactions my pastor, staff and deacon body have with other people. Others who do not speak truth, do not speak grace, mercy or humbleness and have said that my God, and the grace of God has left my church. Oh, God, may I never, ever think that You would call me to destroy the church, no matter how honorable and godly it sounds, to do the right thing, in my eyes.

Lord, I pray for a miraculous work in our body; a time of repentance, restoration and healing. Lord, may I be encouraged that you are in control always, even during the darkest of times. Make Your will clear to us. May we be on our face before You, seeking YOU alone. We will never find fulfillment in man. And you are in control, no matter what!